1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:05,000 This is Luke Corbyn, Happy Easter to all of you. 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,760 Today we take a topic under discussion that has been in and out of the headlines for the 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:11,240 past 20 years. 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:16,120 Indeed, we have had it under investigation on our own news desk for all that period of 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:17,120 time. 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:24,720 I'm referring to unidentified flying objects, or as they are more popularly known, UFOs. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:29,600 Unless you've been in complete isolation for the last month or so, you're aware of the 8 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:35,560 fact that the elusive UFOs have been popping up in communities all over the country. 9 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:40,240 Today I have two guests for you, both in the National Investigations Committee on Aerial 10 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:41,240 Phenomena. 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:46,440 NICAP is surely among the more responsible researchers in this field. 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:51,480 My guest, Mr. Richard Hall, an assistant to the director of NICAP and Mr. Don Berliner, 13 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:53,800 his close associate in Washington. 14 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:58,120 Both have been working in the field for years, and in the last several weeks have been up 15 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:01,720 to their necks in UFO sightings coming in from coast to coast. 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,480 An exciting 30 minutes ought to be dead ahead of us. 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,480 Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining me for this week's tape recorded discussion 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:09,920 on issues in the air. 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:14,120 Take all, let's start with you, and to begin with, let's get a background on NICAP. 20 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,720 I'm sure many of our listeners are familiar with the organization, and they know that 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:23,960 I'm a consultant with NICAP, actually, but let you give us some of the vital statistics. 22 00:01:23,960 --> 00:01:30,240 NICAP was formed in late 1956, originally by a group of Washington area professional 23 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:38,520 men who thought there was a need for a private organization that could help cut some red tape 24 00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,720 and help bring this thing out in the open by working through independent scientific 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:43,880 agencies. 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:52,080 Originally, the board of governors included a number of these professional people, and 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,240 Major Donald Kehoe, who became the director early in 1957, persuaded a few of his former 28 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:03,960 classmates, Navy Adberles, including Admiral Delmar S. Farny, to join the board. 29 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:09,960 The organization really got rolling about mid-1957 when it issued its first publication, 30 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:16,800 the UFO Investigator, and it has grown now to be a membership organization of something 31 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:18,920 just over 8,000. 32 00:02:18,920 --> 00:02:23,720 In those days, of course, originally there were just a few hundred, and now it's in 33 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,600 the past year or so, we've taken a boost of about 2,000. 34 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:32,560 Well I can say this, that I certainly have had a very pleasant association with Don Kehoe 35 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:39,560 over the years, and yourself too, and I met every word of it when I said a moment ago 36 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,600 that NICAP was among the more responsible researchers in this field for good heavens. 37 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:49,800 We do know that there are a lot of researchers who are not what you would call objective 38 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,960 legitimate researchers, and we're getting a lot of information from that area which 39 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,520 really retards the course of serious examination. 40 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,720 Don Berliner, let's get you into the conversation. 41 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,720 Don, you're one of the newer members of the NICAP team. 42 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,440 When did you join, and from where? 43 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:13,440 Actually I joined NICAP in the middle of 1957, not long after its founding. 44 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,800 However, I was inactive, I merely received the publications. 45 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,800 I didn't really tie in to things until about 1960 when I was a newspaper reporter in the 46 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:32,880 Midwest, got a very interesting case, got no satisfaction from the Air Force on it, sent 47 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:39,520 the information to NICAP, and then became very much interested in NICAP's activities. 48 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:45,400 When I came to Washington in 1962, my first stop was the NICAP office, and I really haven't 49 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,080 gotten very far away from there since. 50 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,920 Well, I think that we've just about established the credentials of our witnesses today. 51 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:57,200 I might also tell all of you that not only does Major Donald Keough, the NICAP director, 52 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:03,080 have a number of books to his credit on this subject, but Dick Hall, too, has a research 53 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,200 piece on UFOs, and a very nice one, isn't that right, Dick? 54 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:07,960 Is that still being published? 55 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,480 Are you referring to the UFO evidence? 56 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,480 Yes. 57 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Yes. 58 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,360 This, of course, was a culmination of many years' work, and a lot of people chipped in 59 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,920 on this, and we worked day and night for a long period of time to accomplish it, and 60 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:26,920 it is a document of over 200,000 words accumulating the best cases from our files from about, 61 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:33,200 at that time, I believe we had something, just over 5,000 firsthand reports in the files, 62 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:40,320 and from these we called the best approximately 600 cases after putting them through a rigid 63 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:46,560 test, and these are 50% of them come from trained or experienced observers such as scientists 64 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:47,560 and airline pilots. 65 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,560 Well, you did a script, too, with a professor, didn't you, in conjunction with? 66 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:53,560 What was his name? 67 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,960 Oh, yes, Professor Charles A. Manny. 68 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:56,960 Yes, right. 69 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,720 Oh, yes, we co-authored a privately published book called Challenge of UFOs. 70 00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:03,000 I found that very interesting. 71 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,280 I still have it on my shelf. 72 00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:09,840 Well, I suspect the current flap of UFOs, gentlemen, as far as a substantial nationwide 73 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:13,560 attention goes, started in Michigan just recently. 74 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,280 Let's remind our listeners of this story, and then let's see what sort of an evaluation 75 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:18,760 we can make of it. 76 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,000 Now, this happened, I believe, in the community of Dexter. 77 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,000 Is that correct? 78 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:31,000 How about giving us a background on just exactly what did happen to trigger the eventual personal 79 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,200 investigation of Dr. Allen Heineck? 80 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,600 Well, the first really publicized sightings happened in Dexter, Michigan, as it happens, 81 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,000 when after we investigated this thing, it turned out that the sheriff's department in 82 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:47,040 Washington, Awe County, had had sightings there for over a week, and some of the most 83 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,360 significant cases actually occurred before the 20th. 84 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:55,160 For some reason, the wire services picked up the sightings on the 20th, perhaps because 85 00:05:55,160 --> 00:06:01,120 they occurred in the vicinity of Ann Arbor and at the near the radio telescope site of 86 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:02,840 the University of Michigan. 87 00:06:02,840 --> 00:06:06,280 We don't know the real reasons why it suddenly captured national attention. 88 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:12,520 I'm sure part of it is because ever since last July, there's been a steady wave of sightings. 89 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,880 It's hardly had any let up. 90 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:20,000 John Fuller's excellent article in Look Magazine about the sightings in Exeter, New Hampshire 91 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,720 last September created a tremendous amount of interest, and I think the press and public 92 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:27,920 were really ripe for something to happen. 93 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,240 The new services were primed for it, and so it hit big this time. 94 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:33,240 Well, that's done. 95 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:35,240 You meant something to say on that. 96 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:39,960 Well, I think another part of it is the fact that it was quite close to a major city, 97 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,080 Detroit, and there were a great number of witnesses. 98 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:46,120 It was not just one single individual. 99 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,520 There were men from several different police forces. 100 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,560 It was seen for quite an extended period of time and followed up immediately the next 101 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,760 night by another sighting of a similar thing that was witnessed by a large number of people. 102 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,080 Did not cap people have an opportunity to evaluate the character of these witnesses 103 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,680 or to examine just the type of person who was reporting this? 104 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,720 Well, we sent two people to the scene. 105 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:18,000 They spent a great deal of time out in the field interviewing witnesses, talking with 106 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:25,040 the police and the sheriff's departments, and sent us back a great deal of very impressive 107 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:26,040 evidence. 108 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,040 They were quite impressed. 109 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:33,880 I must say that I was a little less than wildly exhilarated over the conclusions drawn 110 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:40,240 by Dr. Alan Heineck, who came up with the assessment of swamp gas. 111 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,240 Did this seem to have... 112 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,680 I suppose he came to this conclusion, or do you think it was really a valid one? 113 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,360 Do you think this is what he really thought? 114 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:55,360 Sometimes I wonder if it wasn't a deliberate move on his part, but I can't really be sure. 115 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:00,200 But this has sent us all scurrying to our textbooks to find out exactly what swamp gas 116 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:05,560 is and so-called will of the wisp, which is the visual phenomenon. 117 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:11,760 And it turns out it's nothing but basically methane gas and the will of the wisp phenomenon 118 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,960 and just little flickering lights that rise from decaying matter in swampy areas and it 119 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:22,960 doesn't go more than a few inches off the ground or a few feet maximum and flickers for a moment 120 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:24,720 and flares out. 121 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,160 We contrasted this with the reports from many of these sheriffs of objects seen plainly 122 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,560 to have disc shapes to them. 123 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:36,080 Sometimes there were two, three, or four, even flying in formation and maneuvering all across 124 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,440 the sky and the explanation just made no sense at all. 125 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:40,640 Why he made it? 126 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:41,720 We don't know. 127 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,840 There were suggestions in some newspapers that Heineck wasn't happy with the explanation 128 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:47,840 himself. 129 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:52,120 It was suggested that he was pressured into giving this statement by the Department of 130 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,120 Defense. 131 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:54,360 There's no way to document that. 132 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:55,360 Oh, there isn't. 133 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:57,440 And he later denied it, of course. 134 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:58,440 This was suggested. 135 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:04,360 It does seem rather strange, however, for such an explanation to be coming from a man 136 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,760 of his scientific credentials. 137 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:12,840 No one questions his knowledge, especially in his own field of astrophysics, but no 138 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,440 one seems to accept this swamp gas explanation. 139 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,400 No, well, I think, too, I think I reported to you, Dick. 140 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:26,680 I took the trouble to discuss the problem of whether or not swamp gas could be tracked 141 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:27,680 by radar. 142 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:34,000 And I took this up with the folks at the Bendix Corporation here and sure enough, one of their 143 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:42,720 scientists said to me, he said, yes, he said, we do have exotic tracking devices that could 144 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:49,280 conceivably pick up so-called swamp gas or wind or things like that. 145 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,920 But he said, I can assure you none of them are operational in the state of Michigan. 146 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:57,360 So it seemed to me that this sort of ruled that out. 147 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:02,600 And I suppose that in the course of legitimate investigation, we have to take all the various 148 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:08,840 elements and make sure they're ruled out, regardless of how peculiar they might sound 149 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:14,320 to some segment of our observing community. 150 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,800 That's really one of NICAP's main purposes in the system. 151 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:22,560 Well, you know, some months ago, there was an incident in, wasn't it in Soraco, New Mexico? 152 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:24,120 I believe it was down in that area. 153 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,120 Socorro. 154 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:26,120 Socorro, New Mexico. 155 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,120 That's right. 156 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Thank you for cracking me. 157 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,640 Peter Heineck, I remember, personally investigated that and he came away with one of the quotes 158 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,120 that we used from our desk. 159 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,400 He said, I am impressed with the witness. 160 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,480 He also stated that when he left, he was more puzzled than he was when he arrived and had 161 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,040 good reason to be puzzled. 162 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,600 I'm wondering if there was anything that he was able to observe in that case that he 163 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,480 was, that was better than what he had seen in Michigan. 164 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,760 Yes, he saw physical evidence on the ground where this object had rested. 165 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:05,480 This occurred on April 24, 1964. 166 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:11,520 And the witness saw, the witness was a police officer, Lani Zamora, who saw this egg-shaped 167 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:15,080 object resting on the ground, resting on four stilt-like legs. 168 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:20,480 And where it had rested were four imprints, which corresponded with the legs, and there 169 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,040 were scorch marks, and scorch bush in particular. 170 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,040 Lani Zamora had an excellent reputation in the community, and Heineck and everyone else 171 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:33,400 agreed that he was beyond reproach as far as his character was concerned. 172 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:37,480 So with this sighting from a reputable observer and the physical evidence involved, Heineck 173 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,440 had no choice but to be puzzled. 174 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,600 You remember the Stokes case done in that general part of the country two or number 175 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:44,600 of years ago? 176 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,920 I remember I interviewed the intelligence officer at the Holloman Air Force Base, and 177 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:56,000 he immediately vouched for the witness, a Mr. Stokes, who had allegedly been stopped 178 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,760 on the road, he and a group of scientists, by the way, who were in the car with him. 179 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:06,400 Their engine died when a so-called egg-shaped, oval-shaped object hovered over their car 180 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:11,880 and raced up and down the mountain area there, right in plain view of them and so forth. 181 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:18,880 And I won't go into all the fascinating details on it other than to say that shortly they 182 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:24,200 were there after the Air Force publicly stated that the Stokes observation was a complete 183 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:30,880 hoax and fraud, and then about a day or so after that it was verified that Mr. Stokes 184 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:37,880 had just been given a promotion by the Air Force in his, I suppose, double service rank 185 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:40,520 and so forth. 186 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,720 And I asked the Pentagon at the time if it was the practice of the Air Force to reward 187 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,640 people who perpetrated a fraud and hugs upon the American public to promote them, and they 188 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,600 just looked at me at that point and said, we have no comment. 189 00:12:53,600 --> 00:13:00,600 Now I think that when this sort of response is produced by the government, there is reason 190 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:07,360 for legitimate researchers to be skeptical that there must be something there in the 191 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,720 background that we're not hearing about. 192 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,640 And I just, in those cases alone, I think this is something, you know, there's something 193 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,080 that I wanted to ask you, fellas, this. 194 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:24,040 Sometimes when you have so-called physical evidence on the ground, one of the things 195 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:30,160 that happens is somebody goes rushing out right away with a Geiger counter, assuming 196 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:37,160 that for some reason or other, that if we have something that is coming from somewhere 197 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:43,640 that may be, that may have, let's say, an implied, I'm careful to say this, an implied 198 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,160 extraterrestrial origin, that it must be radioactive. 199 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:53,320 Must it be, do you think, is there any reason why something like this must be radioactive? 200 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:59,480 I don't think there's any reason, no, but a test for radioactivity with a Geiger counter 201 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,840 is one of the easiest to perform in the field. 202 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:08,160 All you have to do is turn the Geiger counter on, and if it clicks wildly, you've got something. 203 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:11,960 You don't need any elaborate equipment or extensive training. 204 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,040 You could just turn the machine on and I'll give you the answer. 205 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:20,320 All you have, though, is that something in the area is radioactive. 206 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,320 Yes, well, there has to be a reason then for this radioactivity. 207 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:23,820 Yes. 208 00:14:23,820 --> 00:14:27,520 If you do have a high level, that means something unusual has happened. 209 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:29,360 Something unusual has happened, yes, it seems that way. 210 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:36,160 Now, one case where this might be very significant occurred in December 1964, December 21st, 211 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:41,760 near Stanton, Virginia, where a person saw a cone-shaped object across the highway ahead 212 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,000 of his car. 213 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,120 His car stalled. 214 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:47,200 He experienced one of these electromagnetic failures. 215 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:48,680 The car coasted to a stop. 216 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:50,840 The object set down in a field. 217 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:55,000 Then after a few moments, it took off and rose and crossed the highway again and shot away 218 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,400 and disappeared. 219 00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:01,320 Now, this landing area was checked with a Geiger counter and it was very hot. 220 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:02,840 They've got a very high reading. 221 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,320 It was checked by Professor Ernest Gaiman at the Eastern Mennonite College and also by 222 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,120 two Dupont engineers. 223 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,000 So when you do have a positive reading, you really have something. 224 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,080 This is further evidence of something strange definitely was there. 225 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:20,680 Well, I would imagine that, I don't have to imagine. 226 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:25,800 I know it's a very fascinating subject, but what continually puzzles me is why it isn't 227 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:31,880 given a wider distribution on the part of the wire services over the country, for example. 228 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:41,160 I know that the United Press International seems to be more impressed with the investigation 229 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,240 of this field than the Associated Press, although they sort of go back and forth as far as their 230 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,240 attention goes. 231 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:49,240 Why is this? 232 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:54,400 Well, of course, this is just speculation really, but the whole subject started off as 233 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,000 a great target for ridicule. 234 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:58,840 It was really funny. 235 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,800 I think probably all of us laughed the first time we ran into this UFO thing. 236 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:10,680 Also, until rather recently, the press in general, I think, considered it just some 237 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,440 more of the same old thing. 238 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:17,560 We've been having UFO sightings for many, many years and there wasn't any particular 239 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:18,560 change. 240 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:23,280 Now, we've apparently got quite an increase in the frequency of these sightings. 241 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:24,760 There was a wave last August. 242 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,320 There's a wave this March. 243 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:32,040 At least something seems to be increasing, and so this in itself is a story. 244 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:38,920 Little by little, individuals pick up the scent and it does catch on. 245 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,440 As was mentioned earlier, this article in Look Magazine by John Fuller, who was a highly 246 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:50,440 respected reporter, no doubt impressed a great many of his colleagues. 247 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:56,160 Then shortly thereafter, when these Michigan stories hit, they were ready. 248 00:16:56,160 --> 00:17:03,360 We also had, who was the reporter that wrote one that appeared in one of the scientific 249 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,160 magazines, the science mechanics or something like that? 250 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,560 It came up with a story that was associated with the chief of the Air Force at one time. 251 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:17,800 Oh, yes, McKinley Cantor, well-known novelist, came up with a very good article describing 252 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:22,480 a personal sighting, which he had had in about 1954, as I recall. 253 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,440 He had personally suppressed this information until recently. 254 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:30,760 Another factor in why this news reporting situation seems to have changed and why more 255 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:35,480 people have the courage to report their sightings these days seems to me. 256 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:41,880 The past years, the crackpots or kooks in this subject have been publicized all out of proportion, 257 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:47,040 and this has in turn misled the newsmen, the people they have been exposed to in this subject 258 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:51,320 frequently have not been the sanest, most rational individuals. 259 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,400 Now they're beginning to see the other side of it and it's been very encouraging to me 260 00:17:55,400 --> 00:18:00,000 to note in all the recent reporting practically nothing in the kook line. 261 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,000 Right. 262 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:02,000 I understand. 263 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,000 I understand. 264 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:09,240 I must say and compliment our own audience here in Baltimore and thank them for the fine 265 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,360 cooperation they've given our own news desk in this regard. 266 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:17,800 I suspect that one of the reasons they are disposed to call us with some of their observations 267 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:22,800 to make a determination on them is the fact that we have not treated them in a way in 268 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,400 which they might possibly be ridiculed and of course we'll continue this. 269 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:33,840 I was talking to Colonel Forbush over in Washington at the Pentagon Press Desk not too long ago 270 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:40,960 and we were talking about this and this general area and he keeps telling me, well the Air 271 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,960 Force has a very open mind in this and no doubt they have. 272 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:49,040 I begin to think fellas after looking over the Air Force statements. 273 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:54,480 Now we know what these statements are very generally that they've had 10,000 cases and 274 00:18:54,480 --> 00:19:01,240 out of that they've had what is it, 600 and some things that they have been unable to 275 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:02,240 explain. 276 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:06,080 This is a pretty large number of things that they're unable to explain but they quickly 277 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,040 add 10,000 out of 10,000 and they think that's a pretty low figure. 278 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,840 Of course if there was only one that they couldn't explain then this would be enough 279 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:20,200 I think to justify more than just a casual look and I'm quite certain as you well know 280 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,040 the Air Force is giving this subject more than just a casual look and we'll get to that 281 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:30,000 in just a minute because I believe they're even enlarging their investigation. 282 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,640 But are we really wrapped up? 283 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:36,040 I get the feeling we're sort of wrapped up in an exercise in semantics with the Air Force. 284 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,840 It's the sort of question that is being asked. 285 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,040 I mean years ago I remember asking somebody over in the Pentagon if the Secretary of the 286 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:48,600 Air Talbot had ever observed a flying saucer and the answer quickly came back said no and 287 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,800 I said well did he ever observe an unidentified flying object and the answer came back? 288 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:53,800 No comment. 289 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,400 So I mean here we are. 290 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,200 Are we in an exercise in semantics do you think? 291 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:03,600 I think there's a very strong element of this or there has been in past years coming from 292 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:10,840 the Air Force and I commented some about this in my book seems to me that they use the word 293 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:17,000 flying saucers in most of their releases just as you suggest to indicate interplanetary spaceships 294 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,920 and many of their statements deny any evidence any physical evidence to indicate visitations 295 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:27,040 by interplanetary spaceships they don't say that their evidence doesn't indicate the reality 296 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:30,680 of something real solid and unexplained in our atmosphere. 297 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:31,680 That's right. 298 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:39,080 I was mentioned that they're apparently expanding their investigation and I suspect that we can 299 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:45,200 gather this from the testimony that just occurred in recent days before the House Armed Services 300 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,280 Committee the Pentagon's top brass went over there and they were told to bring their UFO 301 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,680 experts with them and I believe Alan Heineck at the time was testifying. 302 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:55,200 How have they expanded this? 303 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,840 I heard a little bit about it but not too much. 304 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:03,760 Well on April 5th the date of these hearings the Air Force Secretary revealed for the first 305 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:10,560 time that after the Exeter sightings in New Hampshire in September of last year the Air 306 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:16,520 Force had set up an advisory board to review the Project Blue Book UFO investigation and 307 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,680 to see if it needed any changes. 308 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:25,920 This panel decided that the unexplained UFO cases were important enough to justify an 309 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:35,120 intensive review of this data and this panel itself the quality of it is very indicative. 310 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:39,600 Some of the members we have the names of all six members of the panel and just a few of 311 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:45,280 them Dr. Carl Sagan is a noted astrophysicist with a PhD from the University of Chicago 312 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:51,560 and he's on the member of the Exobiology Committee National Academy of Sciences. 313 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:58,000 Dr. Brian O'Brien who has a PhD from Yale is a specialist in optics he's done a lot of 314 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:03,200 work with pilot training and visual acuity tests he's also a member of the National Academy 315 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,200 of Sciences. 316 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:10,280 Now the mere fact that scientists of this caliber have endorsed the need for a real thorough 317 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,560 study of the unexplained cases to me is a tremendous breakthrough and if the Air Force 318 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:22,040 proceeds with the recommendation of this advisory board this board recommended that 319 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:29,240 contracts be let to civilian universities scientifically oriented universities to study 320 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,880 the cases if they follow through with this I would say that NYCAP had pretty well accomplished 321 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,480 its main goal. 322 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:42,680 I think so and I think it would be a really an even more going concern if this happens 323 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,240 I when I was talking to Colonel Forber was not too long ago I said you know you fellas 324 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,040 are going to get a joke one of these days I said one of these things are going to come 325 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,560 down the Pentagon's courtyard and I said you said one of these things are going to come 326 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,480 down the Pentagon's courtyard and I said you're going to find yourselves in a very untenable 327 00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:01,600 position he agreed he laughed about it he says I hope I'm not right here at the desk 328 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:02,600 when it happens. 329 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,920 Listen you know when President Johnson was in the Senate I recall vividly that he was 330 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,240 favorably disposed toward NYCAP and indeed I believe he permitted himself to be quoted 331 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:15,080 by NYCAP on a number of occasions have you folks had any contact with him since he entered 332 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:16,080 the White House? 333 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:22,680 No once he became Vice President he no longer issued any statements on the subject and if 334 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:28,960 he did he sort of brushed it aside and gave the sort of neutral political comment that 335 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,840 has very little meaning. 336 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:38,840 I remember too that in the UFO investigator NYCAP published a quite an impressive list 337 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:46,040 of lawmakers who had studied the book the UFO evidence and has this have you just continued 338 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,920 to grow their interest? 339 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:56,920 Yes as a matter of fact Representative Gerald Ford of Michigan whose call for hearings resulted 340 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:03,280 in the House Armed Services Committee grilling the Air Force a little bit has stated in letters 341 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:08,720 in response to people who have congratulated him and backed him up in his stand he has 342 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,240 stated that the UFO evidence too he said he was aware of it and that it too raised a lot 343 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,400 of questions that couldn't be brushed off with not answers. 344 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:23,400 Well now as you folks know the common question always has centered and I get this almost 345 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:29,720 every day on our own news desk here on whether the UFOs could be ours or belong to Soviet 346 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,440 Russia now can this be reasonably well defined so that we can dispose of it at least on this 347 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,440 program? 348 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,080 I think we can take care of that one pretty well we only wish we could answer the rest 349 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,680 of the questions. 350 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,600 As far as there being ours we know they've been flying around in great quantity since 351 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:53,600 at least 1944. They've been exhibiting performance totally beyond anything that we can come up 352 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,640 with. Some of the things they were doing over 20 years ago we don't even have any 353 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:06,640 ideas how to do. Obviously if we had machines 20 years ago that would perform in this way 354 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:12,200 we wouldn't have wasted tens of billions of dollars on conventional bombers and fighters 355 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:19,200 and we wouldn't be struggling through these crude attempts to get into space. It wouldn't 356 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:23,640 make any sense. Also if they were secret we wouldn't be flying them around all these 357 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,240 years where people could see them and this also would go for the Soviet Union or for 358 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:33,320 any other country. You don't keep something secret by flying it over another country's 359 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:37,480 territory where people can see it or where it may crash. 360 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:42,120 So we're actually pursuing something which seems to be far in advance of our own technology 361 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,520 I think it's a simple advantage you can say that. 362 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:51,520 Yes they just do things that are totally beyond us they make abrupt maneuvers at terrific 363 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:58,520 speeds and they can fly silently and this alone is something that baffles the experts 364 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:05,920 completely because generally when we come out with a higher performance machine it makes 365 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:11,800 considerably more noise than the last one. The more speed the more noise is a fairly 366 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:17,040 solid rule and these things outperform us and they do it frequently without any sound 367 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:17,960 whatsoever. 368 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:23,200 I think that probably it's valid to observe too that if this would have been something 369 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,560 or is if it's something from Soviet Russia which I personally feel is impossible but 370 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:33,800 if it would be it certainly would have a terrific impact on foreign policy of both the U.S. 371 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:40,600 and Russia. They would let us know in no uncertain terms if they were that far ahead of us. 372 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:47,600 You had mentioned Don that in the Midwest you had either investigated a rather unusual 373 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:54,440 case or did you see it yourself. I investigated it I got a call from a couple of people while 374 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:59,760 I was working on the newspaper two men who had seen apparently the same thing but separately 375 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:06,920 they met at work discovered that they had similar experiences and thus reinforced they 376 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:13,200 gave me a call and I ran the story sent the information to the Air Force got an answer 377 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:20,080 back that I couldn't swallow at all wrote a story to this extent asked the Air Force 378 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,720 for additional information they sent me the additional information which made it very 379 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,840 obvious that their first explanation was worthless so they tagged on a second explanation which 380 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:35,360 had no nothing to do with the first one so this was pretty clear to me that there was 381 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:42,360 more going on here than they let on. Was this a landing case or just no just a very startling 382 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:47,960 visual observation of something in the sky. Dick have you ever seen one in the sky anything 383 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:53,580 that you couldn't explain. Oh I saw something briefly years ago in New Orleans but I wouldn't 384 00:27:53,580 --> 00:27:58,280 classify it as a particularly good UFO sighting it didn't behave like anything under any kind 385 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:03,960 of intelligent control at any rate it was just a light source type of phenomenon which 386 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:09,680 gyrated all over the sky I have no idea what it was but I haven't seen anything clear cut. 387 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,880 Well you know NICAP is a very excellent UFO collection center do you encourage folks to 388 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,680 send you information on sightings. Oh yes very definitely we're glad to have any UFO 389 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:23,360 reports regardless of date they might fit with others that are in our files. How about your 390 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:31,760 address where can they send this. They can write to NICAP NICAP at 1536 Connecticut Avenue 391 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:37,880 Washington D.C. Oh that's good and also they can they can apply for membership and like 392 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:43,560 if they want to can't they. Yes we'd be glad to send them literature. Right well now when you 393 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,440 make a sighting we've got a couple of minutes here yet when we make a sighting what are some 394 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:55,560 of the points to remember in making up a UFO report. Well I think a lot of people seem to have 395 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,240 a sighting and not bother to make notes I think one of the first important things to do is to 396 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:07,600 make some notes note carefully the time and if possible the exact direction of the object as 397 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:12,320 established by a compass preferably are some known landmark because people can be pretty far off 398 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:18,760 if they just guess at the direction and the visibility. Yes and basic information about 399 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:24,040 exactly what the object appeared like whether it was a light source or had some size to it they 400 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:30,080 could compare it to the size apparent size of the moon and the maneuvers that the object went 401 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:37,580 through are important how far it moved in an angular sense degrees across the sky. We could 402 00:29:37,580 --> 00:29:43,020 actually spend another hour and a half discussing this subject and I'm maybe I think maybe at some 403 00:29:43,020 --> 00:29:49,220 future date we'll we'll bring you back again and get on it again but but we've been so wrapped up 404 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:56,140 in the current flap that we just didn't get in too much of the fact that a lot of reports are 405 00:29:56,140 --> 00:30:00,740 coming in from other parts of the world this is true isn't it done. Life magazine had a rather 406 00:30:00,740 --> 00:30:06,340 interesting picture of Perth Australia and some kind of a crazy looking light going across the 407 00:30:06,380 --> 00:30:12,580 harbor did you see that. Yes so the picture we had never seen it before and life did not include 408 00:30:12,580 --> 00:30:19,580 any real significant data with it so we couldn't begin to analyze it it was quite intriguing. The 409 00:30:19,580 --> 00:30:25,820 client was produced. Well it didn't it look something like a light leak however without a lot of 410 00:30:25,820 --> 00:30:30,460 information about the camera and the photographer and so forth you can't say anything. And of course 411 00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:35,660 too we have our astronauts up there and something always seems to happen when we get our astronauts 412 00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:41,940 up there something will happen and there will be some reference to what do they call them fireflies 413 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:48,140 or something else that's manifesting itself and they had a couple of pictures that they thought was 414 00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:54,020 another one of our satellites and that was remained unverified and as far as I know is quite puzzling 415 00:30:54,020 --> 00:31:00,940 and there's been no further comment on that so it remains a puzzle of sizable proportions. But I'm 416 00:31:00,940 --> 00:31:05,220 sorry to have to tell all of us that our time believe it or not is up for this edition of issues 417 00:31:05,260 --> 00:31:09,780 in the air. I certainly want to thank you Mr. Richard Hall and you Mr. Don Berliner for coming over 418 00:31:09,780 --> 00:31:14,100 from Washington to tell us about the work of the National Investigations Committee on aerial phenomena 419 00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:19,060 and discussing the most recent UFO sightings. Good luck good fortune and may God bless both of you 420 00:31:19,060 --> 00:31:23,500 and all your future endeavors. Next week we'll encounter yet another topic of our times and we 421 00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:28,420 will have another expert or team of experts on hand to help us explore its many interesting facets. We 422 00:31:28,420 --> 00:31:32,980 hope you too will be on hand and be listening attentively to issues in the air. Now this is 423 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:39,220 your moderator Luke Corbin saying so long from Studio E at 130 on your radio WFBR in Baltimore.